Pack Order and Dominance
Hello everyone,
I've been meaning to send an update
on Berger for a while but there's
been so much information given in
the last few weeks I had a hard time
keeping up. The nice thing is most
of my questions I've been answered
and it's been so helpful in training
Berger. I've been keeping my
husband Erik updated so that we are
both on the same page with him.
I have to say I LOVE my Berger. He
is the best companion I could wish
for. The chores are so much more
fun with him around. I love our
routine and he seems to really enjoy
himself. I have a chicken story and
his last performance yesterday with
a ewe. I will tell later on.
He is listening pretty well but he
has started to test the rules lately
so we've been into enforcing mode
and it seems to work. I am glad to
say that he is fully accepted by my
Great Pyr who absolutely adore him.
They are so cute to watch. They are
so big compare to him but still very
gentle in their play. I'd say
Berger is the rough one with them!
It is so funny to watch my big Patou
(the male) trying to keep up with
Berger's biting his nose, ears, legs
(not hard though) and being
fascinated by this little fluff
ball. Marie my girl, loves him
too. They spend a lot of time
together and Berger has started
smelling her butt and humping her at
the shoulders (she's spayed). She
lets him get away with it. Also
he's got a new trend: he steals
their bones and is so sneaky about
it. Patou is extremely dominant
over food but he seems to think it
is cute enough and won't go after
him. Berger has plenty of food but
he seems to get naughty that way.
So I am relieved that they love each
other so much because they are all
entertained with each other
throughout the day. Also by hanging
out with them he is around the
cashmere goats as well and he is
very comfortable with them now.
Berger's got a lot more confident
around the livestock. When I go in
the sheep pasture he wants to come
in and pester them some. He knows
the one that don't like to be pester
and enjoys fending their charges.
At first I called him back but then
I read that he was showing them he
was dominant over them so I should
leave it alone as long as they don't
go crazy on either side (sheep or
dog). Am I doing the right thing
here?
Chickens and Berger. It's been
interesting. He was definitely into
chasing them and it was work
everyday to make him not do it but I
was dedicated to have him with me
every day in their pasture. Then my
6 year old son thought it would be
fun to chase the chickens with him
while I was attending to my baby
girl inside. By the time I got
there both brats were having a grand
time and the chickens were in panic
mode. That kind of screwed up
things for a while until Berger
managed to go after one of the
chicken (he had already figured out
how to jump (high that is) over the
fence by putting a paw to lower it
down and then jump (so smart that
boy!). My son screamed and reported
to me that Berger had a chicken in
his mouth (by that time my son Ryan
knew better NOT to chase chickens
anymore). I ran to the chicken
pasture and found a completely
drenched chicken on the ground
shaking and obviously in shock. I
took the poor hen in my arms into my
home and wrapped her in a blanket.
Berger got curious and asked to come
in so I let him in front of the door
behind the gate (which is to prevent
my 13 months old to get out the
door. She is a smart one too!). He
watched me care for the hen. I had
to keep her in front of the heat and
since she could not shake off that
cold in her body I took my hair
dryer and blew it on her. She
really enjoyed it (really she did)
and Berger just couldn't believe his
eyes. By that time the whole
Trigger thread was going on and I
got a few ideas on how to handle it.
First I brought back the hen in her
coop who thought she was moving into
a spa and the next day I took a
random chicken in my arms and showed
it to Berger. I told him this was
MINE and made him SiT while I pet
the hen. He has not gone after my
chickens since then! I've been able
to make him sit and stay behind me
while I put feed in their feeders
which are in the middle of the
pasture under a shed. He didn't
bother any of the chickens who were
hurrying to eat the fresh food and I
told him good boy once the job was
done. I was really proud of him for
that. He was pleased to see how
happy I was too (he had that big
smile on his face). I do that every
time I fill up on feed. Every day
though I love our new routine at the
chicken pasture. Instead of letting
him jump up the fence I lower the
fence for him and then I come in.
When I leave I call him, lower the
fence he jumps again and then I
leave. I love doing it and he loves
it too. He waits excitedly before
we come in and it seems he
understand that he is only allowed
when I lower the fence for him. He
is such a jumper.
The sheep story: One of my ewe got
stuck in a hay bale string somehow.
Must not have seen it when I grabbed
the hay and of course she got
tangled in it. When I noticed I
tried to take it off but Berger kept
pestering her while I was trying to
grab it. I was in a hurry and gave
up and felt the string would just
fall off her by the next day. Well
next day the string was in a way
that made me nervous and I decided
that Berger was not going to help
with this. So I got him out of the
pen and thought he would go his own
way as he doesn't always like to be
in the sheep pasture. As soon as he
was out I tried to go after the ewe
and next thing I know Berger is
behind me (he never gets in the
pasture on his own). The ground is
icy but I've got crampons so I'm
thinking I can handle this. I
finally grab that string even though
Berger is persisting in avoiding me
doing this (I'm fairly annoyed at
him by that time I won't lie) and
all the sudden I lost my foot
because my ewe is starting to run.
In a second I can see myself getting
ready to take a sleigh ride with a
string wrapped in my hand (the dumb
things I do sometimes). At that
moment Berger steps right in front
of her, stops her, she tries to go
around him but he doesn't let her.
Just that enabled me to get up in a
flash and untangle the string from
the ewe while Berger is "holding"
her. Oh my, was I PROUD of my BOY!
I was beside myself and he was super
happy to see me so happy with him.
The thing is the next time I went to
the pasture he didn't go on his own
again. So I have no idea how he got
there in the first place but he knew
something was going to happen if he
didn't show up so he managed
somehow. That was so exciting.
He's just awesome.
In the house: Anila my baby is
crazy about him and also his bones.
It's been good training because he
doesn't get growly or anything when
she does it. He stopped going after
her feet now that she's walking but
he still gets mouthy at times and
also pushy so she falls a lot. Same
with my son, when they play with a
toy, Berger still tries to get
Ryan's hands. I told my son to say
"ouch" everytime he does that and I
tell Berger "no mouth". Any more
suggestions?
He started being very protective of
us to the point that he "held down"
the guys who are building our
strawbale house in front of my
door. I was telling them to come in
but they felt too scared that Berger
may bite them. Same with my
neighbor. Next day there were many
suggestions about how to handle that
on this list so I've been working on
it with him and it seems to work.
No more barking at the UPS guy,
propane guy or the builders. Same
with the neighbors. And when he
goes back to bark I put him in the
next room where he can see everybody
but we ignore him while he barks.
The other day he growled at my son
who came to hug him (gently no play)
and Erik immediately put him on his
back. He hasn't done it again so
far. Sometimes I don't know how to
handle the play between him and my
son. When they are outside it's a
no brainer. Ryan sleigh ride and
Berger runs along. But inside,
Berger jumps on him a lot and tries
to bite my son's fingers. It drives
Ryan's crazy and the more he
complains or say no the more Berger
gets excited. Any advice???
He's growing fast and he really is
beautiful. 5 months already. He's
bonded with all of us, but I have a
question regarding Alpha. Since ES
have one alpha they will follow how
do you do when there is 2 alpha in
the house (Me and my husband!) I do
the same amount of work with the
livestock as my husband does if not
more but Erik has a bigger voice and
discipline Berger in a more
domineering way than I do. Berger
follows me everywhere when I do the
chores unless he's with the Great
Pyr and same when Erik does it, so
does this mean he will respond to
the both of us always or will he
choose to work with just one person
at some point?
I think that's it for now. I will
download a pix soon on the group
list. Thanks in advance for your
suggestions.
Cecile
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Thanks for writing Cecile, your post made my day, and the sun is just
about to peek over the horizon in the east! This is exactly what we
created this list
for!
Your pup is learning a lot of pack issues right now. English
Shepherds and other farmcollies don't traditionally just have one
alpha, these are farm family dogs (faRmily dogs) and traditionally in their
function on family farms they have learned that they are beneath the people
and above the livestock in pack rank.
Berger will learn to interact with you all, hopefully protecting your
kids should the ram charge them, and having your back as you do chores, even
if he spends more time with your husband. Even though you are smaller
and more soft spoken than your husband, he might learn to mind you even
better- it depends on which of you interacts with him more and communicates
more readily and consistently. Social isolation doesn't require much
strength or a loud voice. I bet he will learn to do different things
for both of you.
It is absolutely imperative that Berger learns that he is below your
children in pack rank, although now that he is entering adolescence, he
perceives them as younger than he is. When you accomplish this, and
Berger understands his pack position he will become content and most of the
unwanted behaviors between Berger and your son will disappear.
Teaching a pup that he must never put his paws on people or furniture from
day one makes this lesson much easier to teach!
Let's play GONG show! "AANNGHKK!"
The play between your son and Berger. As Berger enters Adolescence, he is
realizing that he is actually a more mature pack member than your child.
Think about this- these dogs are REAL SMART. They are training us as
much as we are training them, and this is a good thing in general as it is a
basis for communication. It sounds like Berger has this thing he has
taught you to do. he mouths your son your son makes whining noise that
indicates that the pup is now his pack superior, and you say "no mouth".
I think there is a good chance he is playing you like a jack in the box,
thinking 'if I do this I show everyone what a BIG MATURE boy I am now and I
get mom's attention". Lets change this behavior!
Take some time to quietly observe this. If Berger either becomes
too rough or mouths your son, SAY "AANNGHKK!" very loudly and look
sternly at him. I think the first time you do this, Berger will look
at you and cock his head to the side. Then he will return to what he
was doing, when he repeats any unwanted behavior say "AANNGHKK!"
again. Then he will try it a few more times each time getting the "AANNGHKK!"
from you, just to be sure he knows how to use this new toy. When you
are sure he knows what behavior gets AANNGHKKed start saying "AANNGHKK!"
when he does it, and then throw him out the door. Leave him out while
you get some household chore done and let him in again to play with your son
when you have time to observe them again.
Do not leave a pup this age that is obviously challenging
your child for pack position alone with your child unless you can watch them
interact. You must be absolutely sure that the pup understands that
the child has a higher pack status. Keep their interaction under your
watchful eye, and teach your son to stand very tall and quietly walk
away and refuse to play with the dog if he gets too rough with
him. You can probably teach this to your child along with the gong
show sound - when you say "AAANGHK"- that means that your son
is to stand up and quietly walk away.
Hi Cecile!
Great to "see" you here
:-) I apologize for not responding sooner, but have a lot of trouble
maintaining a dial-up connection whenever we have "weather", and we've been
having a lot of weather (brrr!). You've gotten some very good advice so far,
and it sounds like you're doing well.
The only thing I'd add,
I think, is that the key to neutralizing the overly rough play behaviors is
to make these kinds of games *NOT FUN* for Berger anymore. When my children
were younger and not sure what to do about an older pup
nipping/mouthing/herding them, the thing that helped most was for me to
teach them not to give in to their instinct to squeal/flap/run away in
response because this just encourages the pup to "play" more or harder.
Instead, my children now know to freeze, tell the pup "NO" in a deep growly
voice (what we call THE VOICE OF DOOM, lol) and then turn and calmly walk
away, ignoring the pup. Once your pup learns your son is in control of
whether they will play together or not, and that the response to rude
mouthing/roughness is always *not fun*, he should quickly lose interest in
playing with your son this way.
If Berger does not get
the message that this behavior is inappropriate and persists in
disrespecting your son and trying to assume a superior pack position, do not
hesitate to step in between the two immediately, back him off your son by
stepping into his space with tall, dominant posture, using the VOICE OF
DOOM (deep growly correction), and convince him that you are an indignant
grizzly bear mama who will not hesitate to *EAT HIM* if he doesn't stop
bothering your baby *RIGHT NOW*. A time-out in a crate or on a leash after
your performance, ideally where he can see you nurturing/giving attention to
your son while you pointedly ignore him, will help drive the message home.
Be convincing and consistent, and, smart boy that he is, Berger will catch
on quickly. FWIW, I've never had a bratty pup persist in
rude/inappropriate/chewing-on-a-kid behaviors after being convinced this way
that the children (all children, visitors included) are my babies FIRST and
he is *just the dog* after all. Hope this helps :-)
-Tish
The
Blacksheep Homestead
(PS- My chickens are jealous and would like to know what your "spa" rates
are, please... ;-)
Teaching gentle mouth habits:
After you have extinguished the undesirable behavior in the play with
your son, you probably want to teach your dog to be more gentle in mouthing
behaviors. You can teach him to take treats gently from your hand
using the "Nothing in Life is Free" principle. Hold a
treat in your fist and holding your fist over your pup's head, say "sit".
The pup's nose gets his attention an raising his head makes sitting
the easiest thing for him to do so he sits. You say "good boy!".
Now move your fist to his muzzle and if he gently nudges or licks your fist,
open your hand and offer it to him. If his teeth make contact with
your skin, break eye contact with the pup, stand up straight with your chest
out and turn and walk away, ignore the pup for ten minutes and then try the
procedure again.
Livestock and pack order:
It sounds as though your pup is coming into his own with the livestock.
At the same time you are enforcing the rule that your children are higher
members in pack position, you must allow your pup to enforce his dominant
pack position on the livestock. Your treatment of the hen seems to
have gotten through to the pup that this is a pack member and we love her
and must be gentle. You are right to closely observe
this interaction and make sure that it does not escalate on either side.
Keep us up to date with his future interaction with the chicken and other
livestock, and do not hesitate to get in touch if you have any more problems
with Berger being confused in the idea that he is higher pack status than
your children!
Elaine
http://www.englishshepherdhome.com/
Berger's follow up
Jan 22, 2009
Hello everyone,
Thank you for the feedback about Berger. It was all so helpful.
Since then I've been tightening up discipline some and I am happy to
say that Berger is not bugging Ryan any longer and same with baby.
Strangely, since I've been doing this Berger seems even closer to me.
The other day I found him wrapped in my chore pants (so cute) and he
has been listening to me even more.
He is still doing well around the chickens. If I see him getting the
idea that he could possibly chase one, I get really proactive and I
just have to call his name and he knows right away what I'm talking
about :-). He also sits and stay when I ask him to around the chickens.
Erik my husband has noticed that since I've been disciplining Berger
more, he listens to me better than he does to him. For instance the
goats were out again and Berger was on the way of Erik not knowing how
to handle the situation. The more Erik asked him to stop the more
Berger got obnoxious. I decided to try it myself and asked Berger to
stay close to me at first. Then when I started going after the goats
I let him do his thing and tried to show him what I wanted to
accomplish. Even though we weren't successful in our attempts, he was
trying to help in a less "messy" way than when he was w/Erik. He got
the fact that I was trying to avoid running in a circle around a shed
by staying on the opposite end of where I was to attempt stopping the
goats. This tells me that the closer the bond with him the easier it
will be to work with him. I thanked him for his help and finally the
goats got on the other side of the fence w/out Berger scaring them away.
The "voice of doom" works great! Of course my son loves the idea and
he feels more empowered in his ability to stop Berger. It worked and
I also "help" when Berger is too excited.
He also responded really well to the Aink sound, almost immediately
actually. It got his attention no doubt!
Berger has been very gentle to baby although I'm trying to quit the
french kiss behavior that my baby is enjoying from Berger. She goes
at him with a wide open mouth to his face so he can't help it to just
do it. I told them she's too young for this yet! I've been impressed
though bce a few times I didn't notice her going right to BErger's
face on her own (she's a fast one!) and he was submissive to her. I
praised him for it.
The visitor issue is still ongoing. I am
consistent however and I
trust that he'll get it soon. I put him aside each time he does it to
someone and I find there are some people he's just not comfortable
with. He got better with certain people though, so there is some
improvement.
That's it for now, thank you again for your help. As soon as I
download my pix I'll post one of Berger's.
Cecile
Photos of a pup returning an escapee to his
pen.
Most importantly, ENJOY your pup!
Training is FUN!
Life is a game with RULES!
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